Solving For Joy

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (00:00)
Without willingness, without desire, it doesn't matter how skilled you are.

the spirit of a person is always going to win.

Chrissie Ott (00:09)
I want to talk about disobedience and joy. I want to talk about decolonizing joy. I want to talk about sovereignty and joy.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (00:15)
disregard someone's sovereignty, dignity, and power with love is still to disregard their sovereignty, dignity, and power.

Chrissie Ott AI (00:24)
you are listening to.

Chrissie Ott (00:25)
the Solving for Joy podcast, where we're mapping new approaches to life's eternal equation and turning our awareness to solving for maximal joy.

I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott, a dual board certified physician, personal professional development coach, and founder of JoyPoint Solutions.

May we continue caring for ourselves and others, and may we keep solving for joy. i'll see you on the inside.

Chrissie Ott (00:56)
Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so excited to introduce you to my friend and teacher, someone I love being in conversation with because I never leave the same as I arrived. This is James Olivia Chu-Hillman. She is a facilitator, question asker, and as she puts it, an enthusiastic and loving interrogator of reality.

James Olivia helps examine stories. We live with tenderness, precision, a little squirm, which I mean as the highest form of compliment. And I knew that James Olivia was gonna be my teacher and ⁓ hopefully friend. As soon as I read a post on Instagram, I was just like, this person is challenging things in the most loving, intelligent way.

So I spent nine months in James Olivia's container regard this which I highly, highly recommend. we are gonna get into some stuff. Probably won't be any answers, my friends, but we are gonna sit in some good questions. Let's get into it. Welcome, James Olivia. I'm so excited to have you here.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (02:11)
Thank you so much for having me, Chrissie I'm like, thank you so much for having me over, because I feel like we're in each other's living rooms. So thanks for having me over. And I'm knitting

Chrissie Ott (02:18)
Yeah, you're so welcome.

So I love to start us off with reflecting on a recent joy. It could be a tiny little joy or a big joy, but I love to start with what's something that's recently brought you joy?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (02:34)
I have a massive list. I'm currently experiencing enormous amount of joy in my life. I just turned 50. ⁓ Not much more than a week ago. And...

Chrissie Ott (02:38)
perfect.

Woohoo!

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (02:51)
There is

The amount of gratitude, I don't know how to separate out gratitude and joy. They very often are so interwoven for me that I have not pulled apart the distinctions as clearly as I normally like to pull things apart. So I have an enormous amount of gratitude for

Chrissie Ott (03:04)
Mm-hmm.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (03:17)
getting to see this side of another half century of life. I don't take it for granted. Really, really astounding to me. As a younger, really reckless and foolish person, I was not sure I'd get here. So I'm really happy to be here. And then there, so that feels like a big thing.

There are relational things that bring me a lot of joy. The relationships that I've enough to cultivate up to this point in my life bring me an immense amount of joy. And not just joy, an immense amount of purpose an anchor to this plane.

And then the little things like I'm currently obsessed with perfume. I love smells. I love fragrances. And so I've been finding little ⁓ non-toxic. mean, I guess as non-toxic as perfumes can be, but clean ingredient perfume companies that have little sample packs like sample kits and just order sample kits. These little joys I have.

I'm just taken by all the different smells that I have all over me right now. So it's... there are like color, texture, smell, tastes, ⁓ sensation, like these are... I'm having a different relationship with my body than I've ever had in my life and so that to this relationship that I'm having to my own sensory experience...

Chrissie Ott (04:36)
⁓

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (04:55)
in a way that's not always uncomfortable, because I think I've avoided it because I've always been uncomfortable, this is bringing me an immense amount of joy.

Chrissie Ott (05:06)
I love it. I wish I could smell what you're smelling like right now.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (05:11)
Yeah.

Chrissie Ott (05:12)
Okay, we're gonna thumbtack that for some other time. I want to know more about the details of that. So, I ⁓ have a lot of questions. I, as you know, am very nosy. We share this trait. delight in my nosiness and the nosiness of others, because it just feels like refreshing honesty to claim our nosiness, our wanting to know things.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (05:38)
Mm-hmm.

Chrissie Ott (05:41)
I'm going to practice around here and also just invite you connect it to through line of your work, obviously, you know, as it makes sense. I really want to share with our listeners a little bit about the backbone of regard, the four skills of relating, that we could just, you know,

talk about that for four days and not get anywhere else. But it was such a joy to be in that container with you. And as you pointed out just a moment ago, the joys that come up through our relational practices, the joys that emerge spontaneously, the joys and sorrows that come from that are all very intricately

interactive with, interdependent on how skillfully we relate. So can we just hear about the four skills a little bit and see where that takes us, especially in relationship to joy?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (06:41)
Yes, and I want to, I want to back up just a little bit from the skills the skills are part of it and it's, it's one of the places that we tend to focus a lot in my containers, like regard and obviously the skills intensive and in paradigm, but skills are only a part of it. And so the, a more holistic view would be

Chrissie Ott (07:01)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (07:05)
I tend to think of it in terms desire, skill, and capacity. And desire, not always desire. Maybe we can even scale that back to will, just like willingness. ⁓ But I think desire is way more fun than just the basic willingness. Without willingness, without desire, it doesn't matter how skilled you are.

Chrissie Ott (07:17)
Mm-hmm.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (07:30)
the spirit of a person is always going to win.

I consider myself fairly skilled person when it comes to relating to difference. I know how to do it and I can call upon these skills at will, but if I don't have the will, it doesn't matter whether or not I have these skills. So there's desire, there's skill, and there's capacity. And sometimes I have the willingness

Chrissie Ott (07:50)
Yeah.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (07:57)
And I have these skills available to me. I've been practicing them for years. And I may or may not in a certain moment or in a certain season of my life have the capacity to relate competently, even though I want to, even though I'm trained to, emotional, my spiritual, my physiological capacity may not be

just may not have it. So I... It's so human. We're just these furry little mammals and we have a limited amount of capacity. We can't do everything all the time for everyone, even for ourselves. I don't like to only put it all on...

Chrissie Ott (08:21)
Me too.

You

⁓ huh.

No, we cannot.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (08:48)
whether or not somebody has the skill to relate because you may have the skill and if you don't want to, can tell you anything and good, like good. And if you don't have the capacitie, that's neither a good nor a bad thing, it's just reality. It's like, okay, let's not have a fight with reality about it. And if you have the desire and you have the capacity, skill is where...

Chrissie Ott (08:59)
Mm-hmm.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (09:15)
the juice is for me because it's capacity you can cultivate, you can steward your capacity, your will, that's between you and spirit, that's between you and God, universe, your creator, whatever you know as what you belong to that's greater than yourself. So nobody has any business in your will. But if you want to know how and you want to learn how to have the skills, that's where I come in because I love it. I love

that a skill is something that you can learn how to do, practice it, and get better at it over time. So if you lack the skill, that's not really a big deal. Like you can get it. I don't know where you get will. That's something you got to pray about. I don't know exactly where you get capacity. That may be something that you get from, you know, community and all the resources that you may or may not have available to you. But skill, you can learn how to do it. You can get better at it. And

the skills that we

touched on in regard were empathy, so the skill of following somebody, being with them. ⁓

Chrissie Ott (10:21)
Before we describe them real quick, may

I just say that in real time, I'm tracking the joy in my own experience of having you back up and reframe that. ⁓ Clarification as a lifelong learner is like sweet, sweet nectar. I'm like, yes, thank you for that adjustment. Thank you for that expansion.

and grounding because that feels so clear. So thank you for slowing us down and naming those compo-

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (10:53)
Yeah.

Chrissie Ott (10:57)
because it just feels so true, that recognition of truth, is that learning and remembering coming together, like, yeah, hmm, yes, what James Olivia said feels very nourishing and true in my body. Like, thank you.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (11:15)
think that I'm insistent on that frame, not insistent, but I'm so...

Comforted by that framework because the way that I learned skills They were the be-all end-all and I was like, I am trying to learn these skills while I'm overriding my own capacity I'm overriding my own will and I'm having a fucking terrible time of it. And so I would I would try and learn a skill but be miserable and and be

Chrissie Ott (11:41)
You

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (11:48)
crying that I wasn't getting it and judging the shit out of myself. And I never want the people who are learning these skills with me to not have a foundation of, ⁓ I am more than just whether or not I'm skilled.

Chrissie Ott (12:07)
Right. I mean, that gets into sovereignty self as well, which is a whole other concept that we may visit in relationship to joy.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (12:17)
would love that.

Chrissie Ott (12:19)
I want to talk about disobedience and joy. I want to talk about decolonizing joy. I want to talk about sovereignty and joy.

So, I mean, we got time. Let's go back to skills. Will you ⁓ help us now with the skills once somebody has decided that they have desire and will and once they are

engaged with their own capacity and they would like to relate competently, especially through difference. ⁓ Then we get to think about these next four layers.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (12:49)
the

All right, so you want to hear about each skill briefly?

Chrissie Ott (13:03)
Yes,

please, Olivia.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (13:05)
Alright, alright, so...

A little backstory, these skills come from our, the lineage comes from the work of Carl Rogers, ⁓ humanistic psychologist. And he identified these attributes that successful therapists seemed to have. And he didn't, he didn't come up with them. He just observed and named.

This is what I see happening over and over again, that these psychiatry psychologist therapists have these attributes of empathy, congruence, and unconditional positive regard. And Carl Rogers ⁓ had a ⁓ very, very big fan in the organizational psychologist Ernie Meadows.

who worked with Carl for, I guess, the last 19 years of Carl Rogers life and said, you know, I don't actually think that these are attributes, things that people have or don't have. said, I think that they're skills. I think they're a thing that you can learn and get better at, not just like that empathy isn't just like you're either empathetic or you're not, or you either have unconditional positive regard or you don't, that you can actually learn how to practice these things.

And he pulled out from empathy the skill of empathic listening. So that became two skills and then congruence and unconditional positive regard. So what Ernie had was that these are four skills and the four skills are necessary and sufficient for the successful conduct of relationship, of relating successfully, particularly through difference. So.

Empathy being the skill of not taking on someone's emotions, not this sort of pop psychology, like, I feel what you feel. I'm walking in your shoes. It's like, I don't want to be in your shoes. I like these shoes. I'm actually barefoot right now. But as an activity, like not a thing that you have or don't have, but an activity, the activity of empathy is following someone, being with them.

Chrissie Ott (15:17)
Hahaha

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (15:28)
as they lead you through their experience. So rather than trying to take them out of their discomfort, rather than trying to lead them away from where they are because it doesn't look fun for you, just being there. And that may be uncomfortable. So that may be the part where people are like, OK, I'm feeling what you're feeling. Well, no, you're just feeling your own discomfort as somebody else is also uncomfortable. ⁓ So empathy is the skill of following.

Empathic listening is the skill of going after understanding somebody else as they want to be understood.

And this is a skill of the activity is sending back and clarifying and getting confirmation. So this is an interactive activity. It's not something that you can just do to someone. If they are not participating by confirming that you have heard them correctly, you're not doing the skill. So if you tell me, hey, the sky is green and it's got purple polka dots, and I go, well.

I understand what you're saying, but I kind of disagree. I have not actually understood you as you want to be understood because I haven't gotten confirmation from you that I heard you. So if you say, yeah, James Olivia, the sky is green with purple polka dots. And I'm like,

I'm hearing that the sky is a very different set of colors than what we're used to seeing. And right now what you've got is it's green and it's got purple polka dots and you're like, yes. That yes lets me know I just did the activity of empathic listening with you. I sent back what I heard. I maybe even guessed at some of your experience. So I may even say, is that?

Is that exciting? Is that frightening? That's the empathic part of empathic listening is like, what are you actually feeling and experiencing in that? And you say, no, I'm neither frightened or excited. I'm amazed. And I go, it sounds like you're, you're experiencing some wonder right now. And you're like, yes, that's what I'm going for. I'm going after getting a yes from you that I got you. ⁓ Congruence. This is one of.

Chrissie Ott (17:42)
us.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (17:45)
my favorite skills. And I think one of the most difficult skills for a lot of people, because we are trained out of our congruence. Congruence is a mathematical term, meaning the size and shape of one thing is the exact size and shape of another thing. And in the skill of congruence relationally, it's the size and shape of what's on the inside of me is the same as the size and shape of what's coming out of me.

my verbal message, my body language, my nonverbal message, my actions. So if you say, hey, James Livia, ⁓ you look a little concerned and tired. And I'm like, no, it's fine. I'm fine. Super fine. Everything's great. And you're like, wow, that's not matching. ⁓ In congruence reads as inauthenticity.

Chrissie Ott (18:26)
you

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (18:37)
and sometimes even lying. Whereas congruence, if you say, James Livia, you look a little tired and concerned and I'm like, yeah, I was up all night with my dog who was really sick and I'm really worried right now and I'm like worn out, I didn't get much sleep. You're like, ⁓ what's showing on the outside and what's coming out of your mouth are matching. It reads as authenticity and it becomes a...

for me, I find it to be a very trustworthy or trust building, I don't know trustworthy, trust building way of being in the world, because I would much rather know what's real on the inside of somebody and believe it when they say it. ⁓ I will insert here before I even get to unconditional positive regard that

Chrissie Ott (19:22)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (19:31)
None of these skills are moral obligations and they're neither good nor bad or the right or wrong thing to do. So if you do not have it in you to be congruent with somebody, you don't owe it to anybody to be congruent with them. ⁓

If you don't want someone to know what's going on on the inside of you, you don't have to. If you don't want to follow somebody as they lead you through their experience, you don't have to. If you don't want to understand someone, you don't have to. That these are not, this is not a value system, it's just a set of tools. So if I handed you a toolbox of.

Chrissie Ott (20:03)
Right, above about,

see above about desire and capacity, right?

above about

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (20:09)
Exactly.

Chrissie Ott (20:10)
I have a tiny congruent question slash observation slash exploration,

Chrissie Ott (20:17)
mathematically, as I remember congruence can be same shape, different size. And it makes me want to explore and get curious about size and shape of our inner world. What you got?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (20:35)
So I'm looking up congruence. And in mathematics, congruence refers to the property of two geometric figures having the same size and shape. And I think that this is importantt. I think that same size, same shape is important, particularly in the skill of manifesting what's in making apparent what's inside you. Like if I say, if you say, you seem upset,

Chrissie Ott (20:45)
Okay.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (21:04)
And I say, I look like I'm seething inside. And I say, yeah, I'm a little upset.

Chrissie Ott (21:07)
Yeah.

Sure.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (21:13)
It's the same,

it's the same shape, but it's not the same size as what's inside me. And if you say, you you seem upset and I say, I'm fuming right now about this. And I'm not going to take it out on you, but the reality of what's inside me is that my anger is very big and I'm expressing that it's very big. I don't need to, you know, make a

Chrissie Ott (21:27)
Yes, yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (21:41)
beast of myself about it and threaten you with with what's inside me but I can express with my with my words that the anger that I'm feeling inside is as big as what it is. So that would be same size same

Chrissie Ott (21:58)
Thank you for checking

that out with me. I, yes, that I'm following that. And I have had experiences of, you know, folks, including myself, expressing a diminutive version of their emotional experience. And that did not land in the energy center of my gut as a trustworthy, authentic, related moment. So yeah, thanks for checking that out with me.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (22:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, thanks for that question. That felt important. So, I like it.

Chrissie Ott (22:33)
Yeah. And we both love precision. I think that there's a great deal of delight in getting incredibly precise with our language.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (22:44)
I do. I also love Slop. It's both. I like a lot of things. I really do like Precision a lot and I enjoy that you appreciate it.

Chrissie Ott (22:48)
Yeah.

You know, it's kind of like art. Like there are works of art that I could gaze at all day that are like minute in detail, extremely precise, and they're fabulous in their precision. And then there are ginormous works of art that I also love that I mean, I won't say slop, but let's just say they weren't put together in a detailed way, right? That they're just still grand.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (23:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chrissie Ott (23:25)
Okay, thank you for letting me take you off track with ⁓ congruence. We have empathy, we have empathic listening, we have congruence, and finally we have unconditional positive regard.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (23:25)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes. Yet another thing before we get to unconditional positive regard. I think a lot of people have practiced Like when when I'm teaching these skills, people don't tend to have a very difficult time with empathy. It's like, yeah, I can just follow, listen, be with. Particularly healing and helping professionals have

Chrissie Ott (23:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (24:04)
an enormous amount of practice with both empathy and empathic listening and put those two together. And that to me is the foundation of holding space. Like somebody shows up with with their big feelings with their big experience with their exploration with their ⁓ explanations. And to hold space is to follow them and at times go after understanding.

Chrissie Ott (24:16)
Hmm?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (24:32)
what they have. And that's beautiful. Sometimes my students will tease me about like, have a bias against holding space. I don't. I do not have a bias against holding space, but I do have a bias for relating. And all four skills are necessary and sufficient for relating. So using empathy and using empathic listening, really, really fantastic for being with somebody, for getting them

Chrissie Ott (24:45)
you

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (25:03)
But the relating, the heart, the etymology of relating is to re and late, carry back, to carry back and forth. It's not just being a vessel for somebody to dump their stuff into. It's receiving what you have, making sure I've gotten it, but also bringing what I have. And that's where the congruence comes in. It's like, yes, you are here with your stuff and I want to know you.

Chrissie Ott (25:18)
you

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (25:32)
and I am available to be known by you. That's where the congruence comes in. So the congruence skill is locating myself in my own experience and then letting you in on where I am. If I don't know where I am, it's going to be really, really hard to relate successfully to you. I can hear you, I can be with you, I can hold space for you, but I may not be relating to you. And so...

congruence lets another person locate me in my experience. Your congruence lets me locate you in your experience. And so we get to see each other and go, there you are. Like, yeah, here I am. And we get to be here with each other. Enter unconditional positive regard. And this is the skill of prizing the differences that feel threatening.

Chrissie Ott (26:10)
Yes. ⁓

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (26:24)
It's the skill that allows me to be with something that I disagree with, that I don't understand, that I judge, that I fear and go, just as you came back and you're like, oh, okay, I'm accepting reality on its own terms. It's the skill of accepting another person as a representative of reality on its own terms. Like, that you, right?

Chrissie Ott (26:47)
Hell yeah. Yes.

Right.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (26:53)
up in my life and I don't need you to be any different for me to be okay. And it's the skill of making that decision and staying with myself to the extent that if staying with myself means that I can no longer you with warmth.

a representative of reality that I don't have to judge and I don't have to change, if I can't do that, that staying with myself and remaining committed to my own integrity means I can put that skill aside and go, you know what? I'm no longer in a position to relate with you through this difference.

that I may not have the capacity, that's where the will and capacity come in. I may not have the will and I may not have the capacity and I can regard myself also as a representative of reality. I don't need to be different for me to be okay. If I don't have the will, if I don't have the skill, if I don't have the capacity, I'm still okay.

Chrissie Ott (27:57)
Yes, and appreciating that the will and the capacity are dynamic partners in this dance. That will changes, the capacity also changes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (28:03)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

Chrissie Ott (28:10)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (28:12)
So that was the probably broadest, briefest overview of the skills. we spent nine months exploring concepts of right relationship and also dabbling in the skills. But I feel like until you get into a space where you just get to practice these skills under a little bit of pressure, it's kind of like,

splashing around in the kiddie pool or watching swimming videos, but you never really like get into a body of water and and learn how to swim.

Chrissie Ott (28:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, you need the immersion, the immersion experience. I'm thinking about empathy and empathic listening in the way that you approach them as a physician. I'm thinking about how it is to acknowledge the meaning making that our patients often have because they might say, you know, my ear hurts.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (28:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chrissie Ott (29:16)
and it might be loaded with fear and it might be a glancing observation. Ear pain is not like a common complaint or anything. It's just like what popped into my brain. But when we practice those skills as you have shared them and as you teach them, it can deepen so much the experience of the people we care for being deeply heard.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (29:28)
You

Chrissie Ott (29:46)
and actually acknowledging what fears and anxieties or hopes or understandings or misunderstandings they're actually bringing to that relationship because of course that is a relationship. And it has an interesting dynamic. I'm just like going a little bit off now because the congruence for a clinician is somewhat

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (30:07)
Mm-hmm.

Chrissie Ott (30:15)
edited, I will say, is the word I'm going to try out here, ⁓ by their professional role.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (30:17)
Yeah.

Chrissie Ott (30:24)
⁓ Yeah, there's that. So I'm just playing with the tools in this context.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (30:31)
Yeah, it feels...

important to address anybody who's in a helping or healing profession. So much congruence is trained out of us.

Chrissie Ott (30:43)
right.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (30:44)
professionally, particularly physicians, therapists, clergy, like there's... ⁓

Chrissie Ott (30:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

We are an automatic robot. We execute compassion.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (30:57)
Yeah,

and you may feel a lot and you may have a lot and it's like, well, how much of this am I supposed to bring? How much am I allowed to bring? How much of myself do I get to bring to these relationships where someone else is depending on me to ⁓ be a competent professional and address their concerns and not try and

shape them into a piece of the world I want to make. And these are not, a value system where there are moral imperatives, like I'm supposed to be congruent, I have to be congruent or I'm a bad person. Being congruent is neither good nor bad, it's neutral, and it has a place. And there are times when

my congruence maybe with a client, I'm fully congruent, I might be sitting there going, wow, I'm judging you right now. That's my congruence. I'm judging you. That's not helpful. That's not, it's not a really, it's not going to to produce the relational results that I'm looking for. Not that I'm saying manipulate relationships by

Chrissie Ott (31:56)
Great.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (32:12)
choosing which skills to use when, but.

does it serve? And these skills are to be chosen when they serve you, when they serve what you're trying to get done. And if what I'm trying to get done, and I say that sounds really, you know, pragmatic, and I am in some ways a very pragmatic person, despite being really, really woo and dreamy. what I want say in my relationship with a romantic partner or a dear friend, maybe

intimacy and I'm not going to get that without a great deal of congruence. I'm not going to be able to cultivate or access intimacy without the vulnerability of showing what I have inside. In a more professional setting, I may want to use congruence in a more targeted and sparing way. So I'm using empathy, I'm using empathic listening, I'm finding out what's going on underneath.

your experience of your earache. Like, what does that mean to you? What is it like for you? Tell me about your experience. You know, okay, I'm hearing that you're scared. Now I'm hearing about some of your family history. I might say, congruently, that matters to me. That sounds really scary and that matters to me. And I don't want you to have a fearful experience. And what I want is to give you the best possible care. That's congruent.

Chrissie Ott (33:37)
guess.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (33:38)
that helps me relate. Now my patient locate where I am really in relationship to them and their pain. So it's not like, Hey, let me tell you all about my family history and all about like all the things I'm and thinking. But I do want what's inside me that I have for you to match what's coming out of my mouth and what, what I'm, how I'm caring for you and how I'm treating you.

Chrissie Ott (33:46)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (34:03)
So there is a place for it, but it might not be, me, congruence doesn't mean total transparency at all times. It means what I have, what I'm holding is what I'm sharing.

Chrissie Ott (34:11)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (34:16)
I don't know if that actually addressed what you were talking about. Where are we? Where are you?

Chrissie Ott (34:20)
Yes, think ⁓

where I am is ⁓ feeling that that all tracks and really enjoying contemplating how much congruence is trained out of us and how a prerequisite to, you know, even situationally specific congruence. I notice I did not say the word appropriate. ⁓

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (34:45)
hehehehe

Chrissie Ott (34:46)
but situationally

specific, is requires us to have a certain level of self-awareness, which may or may not be available. That's a capacity ⁓ question. And a metacognitive sort of mindfulness, the word I don't use very often as it's had the meaning beaten out of it. But I think that

that there is a bit of self-knowing required, which is a maturational subject.

And I'm just dearly loving holding these concepts next to one another.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (35:27)
you're hitting on something really, really key to congruence and that is self-awareness. If you are not aware of what's going on inside you, it's very, very difficult to share with somebody else so that they can be aware. You may be...

I may be having a tantrum and yelling like, I'm not okay and I don't feel good and nothing feels right and I'm itchy and I'm uncomfortable. I'm being congruent. What's coming out of me is exactly what's happening on the inside of me. And there are some level of self-awareness there.

I also may be ⁓ having a tantrum in a very incongruent way where my tantrum is focused on external things and your behavior and what I'm not getting from you that I want and what's not happening for me that I wish was happening. Or it could be positive, it doesn't always have to be negative. Like I might say, no, Chrissie, you're so fantastic and this is you.

You create such a good podcast experience and you've done such a good job and I'm busy judging you affirmatively and telling you all about you, but I've said nothing about me. And congruently, what I could say is, Chrissie, I'm having a great time.

which is an awareness of what my experience is, not just what you have done or not done.

Chrissie Ott (36:47)
Yes.

and it deepens and develops relating.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (36:52)
Yes. ⁓

Chrissie Ott (36:53)
So bringing joy back in to the conversation, what are some fun ways to discover? We're gonna say fun because it is fun to discover even the dark things. So we're gonna take a little dark swerve, but like, where are we undermining one another's joy even when we have intentions otherwise?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (36:56)
Mm. Yep.

Fun is fun.

How do you define joy?

Chrissie Ott (37:24)
⁓ Thank you for asking. I define joy as meaning, alignment, and delight, that there is a coincidence of meaning, alignment, and delight. It is my working definition. It's been my working definition for a while now. I'm still into it, but I am always open to revisiting and assessing. do you define joy?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (37:42)
Okay.

I don't know that I've given this depth of thought. I think I probably carry my conditioned definitions around like what I've taken in culturally. My friend, Lauren Rosenfeld, teacher, she's a friend and teacher of mine, was talking to me about how she parses joy and happiness.

that we tend to culturally conflate joy and happiness.

And I'm going to completely miss what she had for me. So credit her with the conversation and the consideration. And please do not take anything that I'm saying as, as though it is her teaching, because I will be getting it wrong. But the idea that happiness is the delight part, right? The delight with not necessarily the meaning and alignment.

Chrissie Ott (38:35)
noted.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (38:47)
kind of satisfaction and contentment where joy and maybe even pleasure, whereas joy, I think tracks more to what you have, is there's a...

there's a meaningfulness in it and the when I hear alignment a piece of congruence in that for me part of congruence is alignment but I think of the alignment of

of integrity, right, where commitments and my decisions aligned. And in that there's, there's a word that's coming up for me around joy is there's a ⁓ peace to joy that happiness may not have. Happiness might have some ecstasy to it and it might have some mania even, but joy seems like a

a natural state when nothing else is in the way and are experiencing the alignment and the pleasure and delight that comes with that alignment.

Chrissie Ott (39:50)
Yes, I'm feeling ⁓ vibrational information. It has a lower vibration than what we call happy ⁓ or a more harmonic vibration that has multiple chords in it, lower bass notes included.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (39:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. may be putting more on it than what I actually have, but I'm thinking about...

there's there may be a sobriety to it and I don't mean somberness I mean not it's it's not coked up happiness.

Chrissie Ott (40:27)
Yes, it's more than gratification.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (40:30)
Yeah, yeah.

that was a, was a long exploration of the meaning of joy. So long that now I have forgotten the original question. And I didn't mean to stray so far. Are you willing to take me?

Chrissie Ott (40:43)
I am so willing. Yes. It was about ways that we may sabotage or undermine joy in relationship when we are, you know, relating unskillfully or, you know, what are we doing outside of our actual intention?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (41:00)
Yeah, that seems to speak to the alignment part of joy, right? If we're talking about purpose, alignment, and delight. I love three-legged stool frameworks, like purpose, alignment, like that just tickles me. purpose or my intention in relating to you may be all good, like copacetic, and then my alignment may be

Chrissie Ott (41:01)
to limit joy.

Mm-hmm.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (41:22)
kind of fucked up that what I intend and what I'm doing, when we're talking about skill, it's like I'm going after something, but I'm going after it clumsily or with my habitual other skills that I've learned that don't actually work in a situation with you relating to you.

And in that misalignment, in that clumsiness, perhaps neither one of us gets much delight. Or you may be amused and you might have plenty of delight, but I don't because I'm not getting what I want.

Chrissie Ott (41:59)
you

Yes. ⁓

I'm thinking about the many ways that we can miss each other in trying to relate. And ⁓ one of those ways, a way that you introduced me to during Regard was the concept of benevolent contempt.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (42:18)
We love that one, don't we? I love it.

Chrissie Ott (42:20)
I mean, this is

like, yes, this is the greatest hits, ⁓ greatest hits album right here. Let's talk about benevolent contempt. I immediately was like, ooh, ouch, that's me. I recognize how this has shown up in my life, the past, present. let's share about benevolent contempt for those who don't know it.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (42:45)
That seems like part of the physician starter kit. Like if you don't get that with your degrees, what did you go to school for?

Chrissie Ott (42:48)
Ha

⁓

us.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (42:56)
I wish I could see your face right now. So if you're willing to tell me what was behind that, oof, I would love to hear it.

Chrissie Ott (43:02)
⁓ There was a smile happening with my congruence in this moment is about like, I guess my congruence is not actually what I'm thinking about, but I am, I'm looking forward to the conversation about benevolent contempt and sort of revisiting it. And I will, I'll start with, with what I've got and ask you to shape it a little bit.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (43:05)
You

Okay, yeah, I'd love that.

Chrissie Ott (43:27)
for my recollection and current moments brain capacity to explain. Benevolent contempt might be summed up in bless their heart. bless their heart. Y'all know I come from Texas originally. you know, my people came from Mississippi. There's a whole bunch of South in me. And bless their heart is not usually intended

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (43:31)
You

That's it.

Chrissie Ott (43:54)
construe absolute favor and closeness. It is a looking down upon. I have had relationships in my life where I felt like I was in some way doing someone a favor by maintaining relationship with them. And that is where I spot benevolent contempt. but also so human. So.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (44:12)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Chrissie Ott (44:22)
Help me shape that.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (44:22)
Yeah,

that's spot on. That's so spot on. Particularly, I think the first example is funny. The second example is where it really, really lives, where it's The harder it is to spot, when you know you're getting close to it. like, I'm ⁓ here, let me help you. That benevolent contempt.

masquerades as care without the benefit of input from the other.

without the benefit of relating to the other. I know better than you do what you need.

I'm going to... you came to me to share something about what is troubling your heart and I have advice for you. know how to make your suffering stop. a story that Ernie Meadows about. He called himself a recovering helper and these are all secondhand stories by the way. I never met Ernie. I only...

I studied with people in his lineage, including his daughter Katie and one of their students, and several, I guess several of their students, but one in particular, and students of their students. So this is a story that I've heard secondhand, but Ernie would tell it as a recovering helper, and the story is only one sentence long. It goes, Let me help you, said the monkey as he placed the fish safely up the tree.

Chrissie Ott (45:47)
He

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (45:56)
That to me just encapsulates benevolent contempt.

Chrissie Ott (46:01)
I love a short story. That's very precise. Let me help you said the monkey as he placed the fish up the tree. safely, so carefully, so lovingly with so much intent. Yeah.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (46:02)
That is the shortest.

Yep, safely, safely up the tree. mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah,

it's what many nonprofits and charities are operating from, like that you...

Chrissie Ott (46:31)
yeah. I am absolutely

with Issa Rae and Insecure. Have you watched Issa Rae and Insecure?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (46:38)
Only a little bit. I find her so flipping adorable that I can't hardly stand it. I love her face. I know, I know.

Chrissie Ott (46:43)
huh. I know. She's just so gorgeous.

She works for this nonprofit in LA that is intended to serve children of color, children with ⁓ poverty in their background, and it's run by all of these do-good white people. And it's really awkward, and benevolent contempt ⁓ applies. In fact, it's called We Got You is the name of the organization. It's so cringy.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (47:01)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

That is it. ⁓

Chrissie Ott (47:18)
anybody who has not watched insecure. I highly recommend it

for sharing that. mean benevolent contempt really hinders our capacity to relate. Yeah.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (47:30)
Yeah.

I, it feels important to define contempt so that understanding benevolent contempt is easier. I don't have the contempt is disdain. I think a lot of people hold contempt as a synonym for disdain. And I don't have that. I have that contempt is, is a, is disregard. It's disregard for the, the sovereignty and dignity.

and power that someone else actually has. to disregard someone's sovereignty, dignity, and power with love is still disregarding their sovereignty, dignity.

Chrissie Ott (48:12)
Yes.

Could you say that delicious sentence one more time?

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (48:16)
Yes, to

disregard someone's sovereignty, dignity, and power with love is still to disregard their sovereignty, dignity, and power.

Chrissie Ott (48:25)
Yes, I know that you are always inherently speaking about adult to adult relationships. And also as a parent, hear that and I think about ⁓ how we sometimes as parents disregard the growing sovereignty, the moving target of sovereignty, dignity, ⁓ and humanity in our kiddos. And it's tricky.

And it's not to like go off a huge tangent, but it just like, it invites me to think about, even though these are adult, adult principles, they are still something to ponder in our relationships with young humans too.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (49:09)
Okay, feels important. I love that you're bringing in, you know, where these principles apply with children, because I don't think it's necessarily that different with doctor-patient relationships, where one person has an extraordinary amount, relative to the other, an extraordinary amount of expertise, experience, and responsibility.

Chrissie Ott (49:23)
Exactly, ⁓

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (49:34)
and the other has much less expertise, experience or responsibility, but their sovereignty and their dignity are no less than each other's. exactly. And so the sovereignty part for me is not a moving target. A person's sovereignty, their self-governance, their ability to have a yes or a no,

Chrissie Ott (49:47)
Yes, their humanity is no less than each other's.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (50:04)
their ability to make decisions doesn't necessarily mean they have agency. Agency and sovereignty are not the same. their agency and their responsibilities may be moving targets, but their sovereignty is absolute.

Chrissie Ott (50:10)
Another beautiful precision. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. So sovereignty and agency. Agency brings me to disobedience. And I think that you and disobedience and joy would be a really fun mix. Let's talk about the joy of disobedience.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (50:31)
Woo!

okay. Having been raised to be good, I find inconsiderable amount of joy at doing whatever the fuck I want. That doesn't mean...

Chrissie Ott (50:49)
Yes.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (50:59)
doesn't mean there are no consequences. Disobedience has consequences and I find that if the consequences are not going to be joyful for me, I don't bother with the disobedience. also has consequences and a lot of times the consequences of obedience are not joyful too. So what I tend to go

where the fun and joy are, that's where I want to go, my intention, and so I don't happen to care whether it's obedience or disobedience that get me there. Gets me there, subject to verb but I don't want obedience to be my default if disobedience is going to get me closer to joy.

we were talking about with Kelsey, your producer, before we started recording, she had sent me a little form to fill out, you know, a pre show, like, what song do you want to play to kind of, I guess, get you in the mood? like, you know, what, do you want to be called? What do you want? How do you want Chrissie to introduce you? And, and one of my joyful disobediences is that I don't do homework to be on podcasts.

Chrissie Ott (52:04)
Yes.

You

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (52:18)
And so the first time I was just like, ⁓ I'll just put this off and I'll kick this can down the street. And if I feel like doing it. so Kelsey gave me a little nudge yesterday, another email and it was like, you know, this would be really helpful for Chrissie. This actually makes it, ⁓ it was a really sweet email. It's just a little nudge. This is a helpful thing for Chrissie to have a grounded experience going into it. And I was like, ⁓ that, reasoning that, ⁓

that gives me meaning and alignment. What was the other thing? Meaning, alignment, and delight. Delight. understanding the meaning, like, ⁓ this is something that's helpful for Chrissie to have a different kind of experience that she wants to have in my care for you and in my desire you to have a wonderful experience talking to me on your own podcast.

as much as for me to have a wonderful experience of being here. was like, ⁓ now I have meaning and there's alignment for me. decision and the action are now aligned and I have delight in that. So it became a joyful thing to.

It wasn't about the obedience or the disobedience. It was like, well, what's the alignment here? And so the disobedience was fun while it was fun. And then when it wasn't, and it wasn't as aligned, the compliance or obedience became more joyful.

Chrissie Ott (53:46)
I recognize my own patterns very much in that and having not ever described them that way, I feel ⁓ delight in seeing them so articulately named and described. I am always solving for joy. I am looking for the good time and the connected time and I want the time that has meaning alignment and delight in it. It's not just about gratification and I am with you.

I am not, I don't label myself a rule follower and I do not label myself a rule breaker, but I am a pragmatist about rules.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (54:25)
Yeah,

yeah, if something doesn't make sense, I don't want to do it.

Chrissie Ott (54:31)
Ditto. We have been some super beautiful places. I am aware of our time growing short and I think that it would be...

It would be wonderful to think about how all of this together serves us in pursuing our own dynamic.

know, pursuit of joy. And, and thinking about this, especially in this particular cultural moment in the United States, we think, okay, how, how do I solve for joy in the midst of ⁓ relative reality serving up so many complexities, so many opportunities to feel despair.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (55:24)
I feel like

You just put me in front of the longest buffet table ever, filled with everything, and you're like, yeah, go ahead, make your plate. And I'm like, So much.

Chrissie Ott (55:35)
Here's a teaspoon.

Make yourself this tiny little plate. James, Olivia,

will have more conversations. We must have more conversations to share. So disregard the buffet. Do what feels fun and good and everything else is going to work out.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (55:59)
I, I hesitate. That's my congruence right now. I hesitate right now because what I want to say may be a little,

It may be like a little splinter just pokes in a really weird way. And I don't know if it will be or not, so I'm just going to say it despite my trepidation.

Chrissie Ott (56:21)
I trust, I invite, that is my congruence.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (56:24)
⁓ that's... Thanks. Thank you.

What if joy is not always a thing to solve for given the horrors? Let's just, know, given the horrors how much there is to actually solve. There are legit problems to be solved, many of them. Many of them life and death. So given all that,

Chrissie Ott (56:46)
Yeah,

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (56:53)
What if we framed joy not always as a thing to be solved for but as a thing to be? Allowed that what if there was not not a thing to be done. What if there was no work?

other than to let it in.

I don't think that's always the case. I think very often what these thinking brains love to do is solve a problem, so much so that we'll make one. Because how can my brain be useful at solving the problems if I don't have a problem? And I suspect that there are times when...

Chrissie Ott (57:20)
you

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (57:35)
we can just put down even the idea that there must be a problem. And with our sensing bodies...

allow ourselves to experience what is our birthright, what is available to us, even amidst the horrors.

Chrissie Ott (57:55)
I I am flowing with that question. What my brain serves up is, yes, like even in

times of horror, even in times of physical pain, ⁓ we may be able to find a little joy in one part of our body, in one small part of our body. I will not propose to answer, but I think that letting the rhetorical question be savored is actually

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (58:22)
Yeah.

Chrissie Ott (58:34)
That's the way.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (58:35)
And I don't want to the actual work and the actual solving that there is to be done and that can be done with my...

that sometimes we work for it and fight for it too.

Chrissie Ott (58:51)
Yeah, yes. ⁓ Two truths that appear to oppose one another are often excellent neighbors.

I adore you. This has brought me meaning, alignment, and delight. Thank you so much, James Olivia.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (59:10)
Well, likewise, and thank This is I have enjoyed our conversations for the last almost year so much and to continue them and have one in this way in public is I also experienced meaning, alignment and delight. So thank you.

Chrissie Ott (59:30)
and to mix it all up with gratitude just as at the beginning. I am so grateful.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (59:36)
Same, me too.

Chrissie Ott (59:38)
All right friends, until next time. Thanks for being with us today.

James-Olivia Chu Hillman (59:43)
Thank you.

Chrissie Ott (59:45)
James Olivia, thank you for your care, your precision, and your courage. You have invited us to slow down, get honest about desire, skill, and capacity to relate, to practice the skills of relating. And I am so grateful to you. If something here stayed with you, listeners, a sentence, a question, a newly felt sense, would you please consider leaving us a written review and a comment?

I read every single one and even a few words will help others find these conversations when they need them. Thank you so much for considering. Next week, I will be joined by my dear friend, Dr. Bob McCauley, a pediatric palliative care physician, Episcopal priest and author of the new book, Because I Knew You, How Some Remarkable Sick Kids Healed a Doctor's Soul.

We talk about what joy looks like in real world medicine, the search for the least bad option and the moments that hold us together. You won't want to miss it. And if you haven't registered yet and you happen to be a physician coach or a physician who is coaching curious, please check out the details to this amazing opportunity at the physician coaching summit.com. It is

like sleepaway camp meets high level conference meets super comfy retreat. We would love to have you join us. And as always, a quick note before we go, I'm a doctor, but not your doctor. This podcast is for education and connection only and is not to be construed as medical advice. Please speak with your own clinician about your specific situation. Big thanks as always to our amazing producer.

Kelsey Vaughn, to my wife Su and to all who listen and sneak me little notes of encouragement and appreciation. May we keep choosing to be present for each other, to choose empathy, empathic listening, congruence, and unconditional positive regard. May we find our way back to joy even in our hardest moments. Take care, guys. I'll see you soon.