Solving For Joy

Michelle Quirk, MD:
At some point I turned around because I thought, “Well, I’ve gone really far here.” But time seemed to be suspended. I was just in this lovely moment and I felt like I could go on forever.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
So running could be a kind activity, not a punishing activity. What a wild assertion.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
There is something called the musculoskeletal syndrome of menopause, and a lot of older women experience this, runners and non-runners alike. When women start estrogen replacement, the aches and pains often go away.

Chrissie Ott:
You’re listening to Solving for Joy. I’m your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott, a multi-boarded integrative physician and professional certified life and career coach.

This podcast is about joy, what it means, how we find it, and the creative ways people are solving for it in their own lives.

I’m so glad you’re here.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Hello. I am delighted to introduce you to my friend and fellow physician coach, Dr. Michelle Quirk. Michelle is a pediatrician and a run coach.

Here is a question for you right off the bat, Michelle. Why is it “run coach” instead of “running coach”?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
It’s whatever you like. It does not really matter. It can be both. It depends who you talk to.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Thank you. Okay, I think I am more grammatically comfortable with “running coach,” so if there is not a rule here, I am going to go ahead and say “running coach.”

We got to meet about six months ago, and what I loved learning about you, especially as a running coach, is that you did not pop out of the womb a natural-born runner. Like me and, I imagine, many others, running was perhaps antithetical to joy.

For me, running is blended with some fairly traumatic forced-exercise memories from a coach, a PE teacher who had what I can only describe as a sadistic personality. I maintain that position at 53 years of age even though I have not spoken to her since I was probably 11, bless her heart. It was a really hateful introduction to running laps.

So I am really eager to invite you to help us all make joyful connections with running. For some, it will be natural and fun. For others, it will be a bit of a stretch. But as you said before, we are going to hit the ground running and take a step-by-step approach to having some fun.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes. As you know, I am a pediatrician, so the puns will just keep coming.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
That is right. We bring dad jokes to a new level.

Thanks for being with me, Michelle. I am so delighted to have you here.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Thank you for having me. I am delighted to be here and that we could make this happen after several months in the works.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Totally. Share with us a little bit of your origin story as a runner and as a coach, if you will.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
My memories of running in school were very similar to yours. I used to look at the track team and the cross-country team and think they were made of different genetic material than I was. I wanted to run, and it looked very fun, but I had the same experience you did. They used to make us run the mile, the fitness test.

That was always a struggle. No one ever really took me aside to give me any pointers on how to make it better. It was just, “Go out and run as fast as you can for a mile.” I would end up huffing and puffing and walking and feeling terrible, thinking I could never do it.

Over the years I had friends who were runners, and I tried to run many times and just could not figure it out. I thought it was not for me.

Fast forward to 2012. I had finished my residency in pediatrics, started a new job, moved to a new place, and was newly married. I had all of these changes at once. I remember standing in a patient room talking to a teen boy and his parents about healthy habits, good nutrition, and exercise. I thought, “Here you are talking about all of this, and you are not doing any of these things yourself.”

I did not have a regular exercise routine at that point. I had tried to run on and off over the years, but nothing consistent that I would consider a routine I was proud of or could share with this teen.

I remember coming home after that shift, digging my sneakers out of the closet, dusting them off, and thinking, “I am going to take the advice I am giving him.” Start small. Go around the block five or ten minutes at a time and see how it goes.

My approach that time was different. I allowed myself to just do the five or ten minutes, be done, and go home. I was able to repeat that and it started to feel good over time.

I am living proof. Now, years later, I have worked my way up to a 5K, a 10K, a half marathon, and a marathon. I became a bit of a running evangelist, wanting to shout from the rooftops that everyone should run a marathon and that it will change your life. I became a coach, and here we are. A lot of things happened in between.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
There is so much in there already. The first image that struck me was watching other people run and seemingly enjoy it and look amazing doing it. I feel like maybe I am an elephant on the savanna watching the gazelles. “That looks amazing, guys. How are you doing that so effortlessly?” That is what it has felt like.

Maybe there are elephants and gazelles and others, but what you are inspiring me to think about is all of the limiting and identity-forming beliefs many of us carry around running. I will put myself in that mix. Like you, I have tried running at different times. I have wished it were appealing to me.

As a person with breast tissue, that is a real, significant limitation to running, finding a sports bra that makes running enjoyable. Then there is the cardiovascular challenge, the muscle stamina challenge, the worry about injuries.

There are so many identity pieces around “I can be a runner” or “I am not a runner.”

I do not have a succinct path here. I want us to have a flowing conversation about the beliefs you hear people present to you about running. Why do they come to you, especially women physicians? What are they questing after when they say, “Michelle, help me”?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
All of the things you mentioned have to do with identity as a runner. At the beginning, even running consistently for a couple of years and doing some races, I still did not think of myself as a “real” runner.

What does that even mean? What is a real runner?

Over the years, my definition of “runner” has changed. To me now, a runner is anyone who runs. It is not a specific pace. It is not about whether you walk a little or use run-walk intervals. It does not mean you must run a certain distance.

There is “fast for me” and “fast for you.” There is fast for an elite athlete and fast for an Olympic athlete. There is fast for someone who runs the 400 meters versus a marathon. We have constructed all of these beliefs about who is a runner and who is not.

Now what I tell people is, if you run, you are a runner. It does not really matter the pace. I do not know who anyone is trying to impress, because we are not full-time runners. That is not our job. We are not professional athletes, most of us anyway.

If it is your job, that is a different story. But most of us are running for our own wellbeing and health, physical and mental.

Now the reason people come to me is that a lot of them are lost. Many women physicians, myself included, have been very lost. In 2012 I was very burned out, although I did not have those words at the time. I do not think we were talking much about burnout, or if we were, I was not paying attention.

I left out a big part of the story. My dad was diagnosed with cancer around the same time, and he passed away later that year. I was feeling very lost. I had finished my residency and gotten this job. I felt the “arrival fallacy,” as if I should have somehow arrived, but I had no idea where I was supposed to have arrived, because I was very unhappy with my current situation, I was not taking care of myself, and my dad was sick.

Running helped me find my way back to myself. Now I am helping other women do that. They may not be fully aware of what they are looking for at the beginning. Early on, people often say, “I just want a consistent exercise routine. I want to be able to run consistently and have it not feel bad. I want to feel good.” Or they have a race goal. “I have always wanted to run a half marathon or a full marathon.” That is how they find their way to me.

Over time, we unlock all of these other wonderful things, and that is why people stick with it for the long haul. That is the beauty of it, to watch this unfold over six years. I could not have told you that at the beginning. If we had talked in 2019 or 2020, I did not know that yet.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
So there are no real running judges, at least no external ones we need to impress. There is no gold standard we must meet in order to call ourselves runners. We could just run a bit and call ourselves runners, even if it is a run-walk.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
You never have to run a race if you do not want to either.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I have never felt like running a race was on my bingo card. Maybe that will change because of your influence. I want to tie running to joy. If you have heard much of this podcast, you know my interpretation of joy is a combination of meaning, alignment, and delight.

I do not immediately understand the meaning, alignment, and delight in running. I have no doubt they exist, and I would love for you to speak to the joy, the ways running has been part of you solving for joy, which you have alluded to, and also how we might miss the mark. What is the cautionary tale part of this?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
I think the best thing I did one day was forget my headphones. I used to run with music or a podcast. One day I went out on the trail and forgot them. I thought, “I do not want to go all the way back home. I will just go.”

I started to notice things on the trail: nature, animals I had ignored before, lovely birds, turtles, animals doing their thing, trees, so much around me. I thought, “This is interesting.”

I stopped thinking about everything. That was a meditative run for me, even though I did not know anything about meditation back then. I got out of my head for a bit and was aligned with nature in the moment. The run went by so fast. At some point I turned around because I realized I had gone really far and needed to go back, but time felt suspended. I was in that lovely moment and felt like I could go on forever. Of course I would have needed water and fuel, but it felt like I could keep going for miles.

After that, I started leaving my headphones at home all the time. I realized this was a way to get into my thoughts if I wanted to, or not think about anything if I did not. Depending on my mood and how the day had been, it became a choose-your-own-adventure.

Leaving the headphones at home and having this mindfulness aspect is what helped bring me back to myself.

With everything that went on with losing my dad, the grieving process was different for me than it might be for someone else. Our training and habits as physicians put us in a place where we just keep moving forward. I had that mindset with this as well. I had just started this new job. It did not occur to me to take time off, a leave of absence, FMLA, anything like that. I took a couple of days for his funeral services, but that was it. It never occurred to me that more time off was an option.

No one suggested it, and it was not necessarily their job, but I simply did not think it was possible. So I kept moving forward. For a while, running took my mind off everything. Eventually, it caught up with me, and I started to really process my grief while I was running.

For me, grief and running are tied together over years. Moving through all of that is what unlocked the joy. That is how I found joy in the process. I love the photos of me crossing finish lines. I cannot hide how much I love it. I also love the day-to-day runs around my neighborhood. It is a different kind of joy, but I love all of those feelings.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I would be remiss not to acknowledge that I am really sorry you lost your dad. We are part of a giant club of folks who have lost at least one parent.

I am having a little flashback. For me, it has been walking, not running, but I love walking around the neighborhood. I find it meditative. Sometimes it is with a podcast or music, and sometimes it is silent for similar reasons.

On this particular day, I was listening to a playlist of music my dad loved, which we had time at the end of his life to co-create. I said, “Dad, tell me all the music that you love so that when I listen to it, I can be with you.” When I need to visit my missing him or my grief, I have this playlist that will usually bring me some tears, because I feel like we are communing through music.

Just talking about it, I feel emotions arising. Being alone, even in the little bit of nature in a neighborhood, moving my body, not being in the house tempted to do dishes or laundry or a million other things, is such a beautiful way to let go and connect with grief.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes. Once I allowed myself that space, I started to see my dad showing up more. I think he was there all the time. I just had not noticed.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
So what about the cautionary tales? How do people accidentally miss connecting to solving for joy when they approach running?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
The most common mistake I see, in newer runners and experienced runners, is that they run their runs too fast. They go out too hard or keep taking it to the next level.

We have this ability as high-achieving professionals to say, “Yes, we are going to do this and we are going to do it well.” We train so well that we go overboard. We run all of our easy runs too fast. We run extra: Coach Michelle gave me three runs this week, but I ran five because I love it.

Then we end up, in the worst case, injured. Even short of that, we become burned out on the very thing that was supposed to help with stress and fatigue. We do it so much that we make ourselves tired and stressed from the thing that was meant to relieve tiredness and stress.

So we look at training load. What has your training looked like over the last couple of months and the last week? How can we make it easier?

With beginners and experienced runners, I talk about a level-of-effort scale. If you are going out on a walk, imagine a level of effort of one out of ten. One is a nice brisk walk. Ten is a bear chasing you and you are running for your life.

When I talk about an easy run or easy jog, we want that level of effort around a two or three out of ten. If we were jogging together, we could have a conversation, maybe not as easily as we are right now, but without huffing and puffing and feeling like we have to stop and go home.

One of the first things we do is tap into how the run feels in the body. What is my real level of effort? We practice being truthful with ourselves. You might want to tell me it was a three, but if your heart rate was 185, it probably was not a three.

So we take a deep breath and try to slow down. That can take one, two, or three months to really figure out. It is different for everyone. We can take an educated guess based on your past running and any recent races, but a lot of people have trouble slowing down.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I believe it. I work with a lot of type A women who think the problem is that they are not working hard enough, and that is not really their growth edge anymore.

I am curious about people who are in the contemplative phase of, “I could run.” The other day I was on a walk with my wife and my daughter. I had been feeling pent-up that day. No one was getting out of the house fast enough, and I had a long stretch of days where I had not moved my body very much.

When that happens, there is sometimes this desire to express the energy. They were moving slowly, so I took the dog and ran down the street for a block and a half and then ran back.

It felt so good. I also felt clearly not in the greatest shape, cardiovascularly or endurance-wise. I am working on increasing that, but it was this undeniable urge to run, which I do not experience very often. I had more energy than I could contain without moving at a higher amplitude.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
One thing you could consider, especially on a dog walk, is your own version of run-walk intervals. Decide, for example, that every five minutes you are going to do a 20-second jog.

Sometimes I call it the mailbox technique. In your neighborhood, you run between a certain number of mailboxes. People joke about whether they live in the city or the country and how far apart the mailboxes are, but the idea is you run a short, defined stretch.

It does not have to be written down or set in stone. If you prefer a structured interval, you can do one minute jog, one minute walk, but you can also do it by feel. Jog for 20 seconds like you did, then walk and recover your breath until you feel like you want to do it again. That is how you can insert little bursts of running without anything fancy.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I love that directive and permission. It feels good to have external permission: “You can run. It is okay, Chrissie. You can run.”

My nervous system immediately asks, “I am not going to hurt myself, Michelle, am I?” And you are saying, no, you are not going to hurt yourself with a little bit.

Doing it by feel feels like a friendly invitation rather than an assignment. Even if you did just one running interval on your walk. Even if you did two running intervals on your walk, it might be fun. It did feel fun that day. I thought, “I am running for fun. This is weird.”

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes. A lot of times, when runners take a planned season of rest after a big race, it can feel hard to restart. That period of rest can be a couple of weeks, a couple of months, even a couple of years.

Maybe you were a runner for a long time in the past and you are attached to what running looked like then. Now you are ten years older, you have had kids, and there are so many things wrapped up in it. It can feel like, “I do not know how I am going to start again, because I cannot be that person again.”

Instead of focusing on pace or mileage, I sometimes write a training plan based on total time. We start with 15 minutes, three times a week. That can be your dog walk with some run intervals. It could be run-walk, it could be jogging, depending on where someone is starting.

Sometimes focusing on total time and taking the math out of it helps. You do not have to cover a certain distance or pace. You just do 15 minutes at an easy effort and then report back. That is where we start.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I love that. Do you feel like you prescribe running in your pediatric practice?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes, all the time.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
How does that look?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
I try to frame it around what the child already likes to do. If a kid says they hate running or they have tried it and do not like it, okay. If I have an open-minded kid who says, “I do not really know what I like to do. I like to play video games,” which is a common answer, I ask more.

If they already like a certain sport, we work with that. If they have not considered running, I might say, “What do you think about running?” Often I get a shrug and, “I do not know, I just do it in gym when they make me.”

With older kids, especially middle school and high school, there is a program here in Philadelphia called Students Run Philly Style. There are similar programs in other cities. Students are paired with running mentors and train for longer distance races. These are not kids on the track or cross-country teams. They are not “running stars.” They find running like I did.

The philosophy is similar to mine: get kids excited to move their bodies, with no pace requirements. They pair kids with mentors to train for the Broad Street Run, a ten-mile race here, and the Philadelphia Half Marathon in the fall. I have sent many patients to Students Run and have had good success.

If I can get them interested enough to try running on their own and they like it, I try to feed them into the Students Run program.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Nice. We have Girls on the Run here.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes, Girls on the Run is great too. It is a similar idea.

I use the same techniques with kids. They have a lot of objections in their minds, just like busy professionals do, but they may be different objections. They cannot always figure out how to get from “this sounds good” to actually doing it.

I work in West Philadelphia, and safety is a concern. So we cover basics: I want you running with an adult or a friend, and running in daylight. We talk about all of that. Then we go back to starting small, just getting started. Instead of trying to reduce game time by an hour, we talk about decreasing it by ten minutes and giving yourself ten minutes outside instead.

If you give kids a list of twenty things to do, nothing gets done. So we focus on a few small, doable steps.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
That is so true, and knowing it does not always prevent us from messing it up. It is hard.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
As the pediatrician, I have my own checklist of things I want to talk about and assign as “homework” before the next visit, but I try to limit it to three things. “Here are the three things to focus on for next time.” That is about all anyone can reasonably do.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I have questions about individual populations and running. I am asking you for both your running coach brain and your doctor brain.

Menopausal women are a lot of the folks you and I are speaking to. One of the beliefs we probably carry is that, as a woman of a certain age, starting running seems unlikely. I am thinking about people with body conditions like ligament laxity, Ehlers–Danlos, and other special populations who may have deeply internalized the belief that it is not safe for them to run.

I imagine you have wisdom there that might be helpful.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Most of my clients are probably in the perimenopause and menopause category, because that is the company I keep. There are special considerations as we age, but I would say that most people actually can run.

A lot of people will say, “What about my knees?” Everyone is worried about their knees. It is funny, because the data show that knee problems are more common in people who are significantly overweight and sedentary. If you look at who needs knee surgeries and repairs, it is not primarily runners.

I always say, talk to your primary care doctor and get cleared to run. But for probably ninety-five percent of us, it is actually safe to run within reason, if we do what we talked about: start slow, work up from where you are, and do not sign up for a marathon tomorrow.

If you work up in a reasonable way and do other supportive things like stretching and strength training, you put yourself in a better position to avoid injuries. If you already have other movement practices, we can bring it all together.

Most of us really can run safely.

For the perimenopause and menopause age group, one thing I think about a lot is that I see runners with a variety of aches and pains. It is hard sometimes to separate out whether you are sore from a workout or whether something else is going on.

As I have learned more about hormone replacement in perimenopause and menopause, I have become more aware of something called the musculoskeletal syndrome of menopause. Many older women experience this, runners and non-runners. When women start estrogen replacement, the aches and pains often go away.

That is really in my mind now. So when a runner tells me about pain in multiple areas, like a shoulder and a hip and a knee, I often think, “Have you talked to your doctor about hormone replacement?” Because this can solve aches and pains that have nothing to do with running.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I would love to hear a progression story from the Mindful Marathon perspective. I am using “success story” loosely here. I would love to hear about someone who started relatively close to where many listeners might be now and ended up with a running practice that brings them joy. It does not have to be a specific level of accomplishment, but I would love a story.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
There are many, but I am thinking of an athlete named Smruthy. She is a scientist. She wrote to me in 2020 or 2021. I am not sure how she found me. Maybe she heard me on a podcast.

She had not been running at all and wanted to start a regular running and fitness routine. She joined a program I have that is my equivalent of a Couch to 5K. It is called Ready, Set, Run. She was in one of the first groups I ever ran.

She did that program, ran a 5K, and kept running. About a year and a half later, she came back and said she wanted to run a half marathon, and her son wanted to do it with her. I think he was 12 or 13 at the time.

So I trained them both. We made two plans. She ran her first half marathon with her son in 2023 or 2024. They continued running in between.

She came back again this past year and said, “Now we want to run the half marathon again, but we want to get faster.” They did speed work, and now her son has gotten a lot faster than she is. So he had his own plan, she had hers. They ran the race again and both had a personal record. They beat their times from the year before.

Out of all of this, her son ended up joining the cross-country team this fall. I watched his times, and he really soared. I think he is now 14.

So it is a two-for-one story. She started from essentially zero, but she also brought her family into it. Her husband and daughter have done some local 5Ks as a family. It has had a ripple effect.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
It really shifted the whole family’s identity in relation to athleticism. These are sliding-door moments. If you are on a cross-country team, you meet different people, travel different places, and form a different identity than if you never started.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes. I love that people I worked with in 2019 and 2020 take time off and then find their way back. It is beautiful to see how goals evolve over time. At the beginning, it is often “I want to run my first 5K.” Later we are talking about marathons, maybe qualifying for Boston, all sorts of big goals.

It is fun to watch that evolution.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I know people for whom marathoning has become their drug of choice. I hope they love it and stay safe and healthy.

Did your client have many objections? I imagine once people find you, they have already wrestled with some running objections. But as you can see, I am still fixated on all the objections.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
At the beginning, objections are usually about time: “I do not have a lot of time.” Especially with training for a long-distance race, people wonder how much time it really takes to do it safely.

People also get hung up on gear. They ask, “What is the best running shoe I should get?” The truth is, the best shoe for me is not the best shoe for you. I usually recommend going to a local running store to get fitted based on your experience, any past injuries, and the shape of your foot.

If you Google “best running shoes,” you will disappear into a three-hour rabbit hole when you could have been running. People get hung up on what to wear, the identity as a runner, the time, the gear, all the “what ifs.” Those thoughts keep them from getting out on the pavement.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
In my mind, the big objection is three words: “Can I really?”

Michelle Quirk, MD:
You already did. You did it with your dog. Over time, repetition helps your brain understand, “Yes, I am out here doing this.” It may not look like the original picture you had in your mind when you thought, “I am going to be a runner now,” and that is okay. It can look different and still count.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
It is a fun possibility to entertain. My dog would be thrilled, and it would be great for other members of my family too.

Michelle, what is bringing you a lot of personal joy right now?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
We were just talking about this being a busy season of life. It is busy at the office. It is sick-kid season in winter. It is busy at home with the holidays.

For me, joy is pretty simple. My routine of making sure I give myself time in this busy season is what brings me joy. That might look like a walk or a run. It might look like a swim. I also love to swim.

Movement brings me joy, but I am also very much an introvert. I am very happy on the couch with a book. That brings me a lot of joy too.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
That is its own delight.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Yes, it is the combination of movement and rest.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
It is like balancing sweet and savory.

Do you have any comments for folks about running outdoors versus running on a treadmill?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
You have to try both to see what you like. I do not love running on a treadmill. I will do everything I can not to use it. I will bundle up and go out in the cold. Safety comes first, so if it is icy or there is lightning, I do not go outside. On those days, I use the treadmill.

But I find the treadmill a bit boring, so I love to go outside. I do have athletes who enjoy the treadmill, and if it works for them, that is fine.

On a treadmill, I recommend varying the incline. No matter whether your neighborhood is flat or hilly, outdoors there is always some variation. If you are always on the treadmill, changing the incline a bit keeps you from working all the same muscles in the same way every time.

Whenever possible, I try to go outside.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I do not blame you. It is more interesting. I do not mind walking on a treadmill, but running on one feels less exciting.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
It is harder for me to do speed workouts on the treadmill. It feels faster than the same pace does outside. Outside I also get to see all my neighborhood dog friends, which I love.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Yes. I notice you call everyone you work with an “athlete.” I know that is by design. Can you share why you do that?

Michelle Quirk, MD:
That has been a change over time. I do not think I always referred to everyone as “my athletes,” but now I do. I am trying to remove any stigma around who is a runner and who is not.

I have people who primarily use run-walk intervals. I have very fast runners. I have people who run at slower paces. They are all athletes who are following a training plan and have goals for themselves. They are trying to improve their own goals. It really does not have to do with anyone else.

So I call them all my athletes.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I love it. I will be one of the athletes in your extended circle.

I feel like I received a partial personal consult today, and I am curious in a way I have not really been before. Could running also be a source of joy? Could it be a source of delight and alignment with my values of self-care, strength, and fitness? Could it bring more meaning into my life in some unexpected way?

I am looking at this as a prescription: running for 15 minutes three times a week, doing a body-guided, somatically sensed, organic run-walk interval with my little hound dog, who will be so happy.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
You could do a little body scan while you are out there, which will help you with the level of effort. Go head to toe and notice how you feel during the run-walk. That will help you tune into your body.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
Yes, deeply connecting with yourself, which is the opposite of what we physicians, especially women physicians, are trained to do. We are trained to ignore body signals. It is actually a trope in our culture. We do not stop to pee until perhaps the twelfth time our brain tells us we need to.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Exactly. That is one of the pitfalls we talked about. We bring all of that into running. It can be too much of a good thing. You can run yourself ragged.

Paying attention to when your body needs rest is essential.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
There is another pun for us.

So running could be a kind activity, not a punishing activity. What a wild assertion. And we could do it with a lot of listening and care.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom and your joy of running, which is so genuine and appears to be really non-neurotic. I celebrate that, Michelle, and I am so glad that our circles have overlapped.

Michelle Quirk, MD:
Thank you very much for having me. I look forward to seeing a picture of you and your dog out there. Please send it to me.

Chrissie Ott, MD:
I like that challenge. Okay, I will do it. I will wait until this rain stops.

Michelle, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your story. I love how you broaden the definition of what it means to be a runner and an athlete. If you have run, you are a runner. You invite us to start small, go slowly, and let it be about our wellbeing and an invitation rather than an invisible panel of running judges.

Thank you for sharing how running interacted with your grieving process for your dad and helped you find your way back to yourself. I know many people listening will recognize themselves in this story.

For those of you listening, if something in today’s conversation stirred curiosity in you about moving your body again or beginning again in this season of life, I want to invite you into a space where we explore things like that together.

Our physician coaching community has been doing deep and powerful work. The room has been full of honesty, tenderness, and the kind of support that helps you see where you have been running your life at an eight out of ten and what it might be like to experiment with a two or three and still call it enough.

If you are a physician coach and you were not able to make it to our last call, the replay is waiting for you inside the Physician Coaching Collective. I would love to have you join us for our next live call. I am leading this Thursday, December 11 at 2 p.m. Pacific, End-of-Year Accounting: The Self-Concept Edition, and Dr. Sita Shafi is leading on Monday, December 22 at 10 a.m. on emotions, energetics, and a tool for coaching.

As always, I am a doctor but not your doctor. This is not medical or professional advice. It is an invitation to reflect, connect, and own your inner knowing. Always talk to your clinician about what kind and level of movement is healthy for you.

Thank you to Kelsey, my producer and helper in all things, whose creative magic brings this podcast to life, and to my sweetheart Su for her steady support in everything I do. And to each of you listening, may you give yourself permission to start exactly where you are. Notice the places where joy is calling, and may you take the next small, brave step toward yourself.

This is Solving for Joy. I am so glad you are here.